Re: [WMASTERS] charset and grantha

[Nagarajan Chinnasamy <nagu@ncms1.cb.lucent.com>]

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anbu Selva,

pathil ezuthiyatharkku nantri.

Please read further....

C.R. Selvakumar wrote:
> 
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> 
> Dear Nagu,
> 
> Many thanks for your reply. I'm sorry I didn't get back to this
> earlier.


Anyway, I was(am) really occupied. So, thanks for taking time :-)


> 
> *Dear Selvakumar, Mani, Kathiravan Dr.Kalyan and others,
> *
> *My comments on the contents of your webpage:
> *
> *  1. "aq" + a = ha is an excellent idea. It comes very naturally
> *     Thats very important. Though lot of suggestions sound very
> *     logical, it should look very simple and natural for the
> *     people to adopt it. I think aq+a=ha can be successfully
> *     implemented.
> 
>          Almost everyone feels so and I think this will be a good
>         substitution without too much difficulty. However, there is
>         one catch and so far no one had pointed out. In this system,
>         the pure consonant 'h' ( 'mey' without a vowel) will be a
>         slight problem, though we can simply use 'q' itself. Like
>         Rahman as ra_q_mA_n.


Yes. Thats exactly what I would like to do. We can just remove 'ha'
from Tamil script. Ra_q_mA_n is fine. We write a_q_thu ("athu",
meaning English "it") in the same way right???


> *
> *  2. For other letters (sa, sha, and ja), I dont find them so
> *     natural as "aq"+a=ha. But I really appreciate the idea
> *     behind that. Yes you have used those letters that pulls
> *     tongue inside and converts the sound of "ca" to sa, sha
> *     and ja. But it is still a kind of technique. I doubt if
> *     people will take it. You can notice that this technique
> *     works very naturally in the case of aq+a=ha.
> 
>         The idea is NOT to FULLY reproduce the non-tamil sounds, but
>         only to PROMPT by association.
> 
> *
> *  3. Also, usage of z and nj will become ambiguous.
> 
>          I don't understand how ambiguity arises.
> 
>          The z ( which I presume you're meaning the Saraswati S)
>          is produced by aytham(q)+ c.
> 
>          The nj is used in front of 'c' to produce 'j' which is
>          really very close and here I don't understand the objections of
>          Dr. Kalyan as well.


How do you read a_nj_c_aa_n as??? As per your method it will be
pronounced
as  ajaan. But currently it is pronounced as anjaan which means
one who does not fear. 

"q" is very much connected with "ha" sound. But imo it  is not at all
related
with "sa". You do not have to pull your tounge inside to pronounce sa
but
you need to for ha. So, it goes well with ha and not sa.

"z"+"ca", though technically not so ambiguous, find it a bit difficult
to
digest.


> 
> *
> *  4. Same point applies to G, D and B sounds.
> 
>         The point of writing the 'pure consonant' ( uyir ERaa mey) in front
>         WILL PROMPT the reader to pronounce the following letter
>         with G, D, B, and Dh. We are NOT to pronounce the pure consonant.
>         But even if we did pronounce, it would only cause a small distortion
>         ( unwanted initial transient 'i' sound). This initial transient 'i'
>         is to be supressed. We do remember so many 'wonderful' combinations
>         in English, and this is similar and less difficult  imo.
> *
> *  5. For F sound, as you said we can use aq+v=f technique.
> 
>         I'm glad you think so.


I accept it, because, f needs the tounge to be pulled inside thus
making "aq+v=f" natural a bit. And most imporant: no ambiguity.


> 
> *
> *  6. Regarding aq+p, I think its actually used in the place
> *     of "ph" sound not in the "f" sound.
> *
> *     Eg. pharmacy is written as aq pa r ma ci
> 
>            Well, this kind of extentions will lead us into
>            more difficulties ( we're only trying to APPROXIMATE
>            the sound not IMMITATE the full complexity of
>            pronounciation and spelling etc.)


I just wanted to bring the current practice to your notice. You need
to consider this, because, we dont want 2/3 practices floating around.


> *
> *
> *One more point I want to add (which you have mentioned in you web
> *page) is:
> *   **We have grammar** to support these sounds in majority of the
> *   cases. In the name of finding new letters/letter combinations
> *   we should make these rules ambiguous and we should leave these
>       ~~~~~~~~~
> 
>     'should not' ( taken notice of)
> 
> *   rules behind. If we do that, I dont know what will be there to
> *   say that it is Tamil.
> 
>          My whole idea of introuducing the initial mey is for NOT
>          causing confusions to our beautiful tamil rule.
> 
>          For example if we want to say viKadan and not vigadan
>          we can use vi(k)kadan in tamil to point out that the 'ka'
>          is to be pronounced hard and not as per tamil nature 'ga'.
> 
>          I'm violating tamil rule of not starting with a pure
>          consonant, but this is only for non-tamil words. If we want to
>          use Tholkaappiyam rule, we can, but then we should also follow
>          other rules. I feel it is okay to make an exception to
>          non-tamil words and by this method we are able to expand
>          into expressing more phonemes and in non-tamil sequences,
>          without adding any new characters.
> *
> *Regarding your encoding again:
> *    I just want to warn(please do not think that I am discouraging you
> *    and its not used in a harsh way) any of the effort of this kind
> *    that We should always have the simplicity of Tamil in mind. Touching
> *    the script (particularly adding something to it based on the sound)
> *    should be avoided as much as possible. We should not just think
> *about
> *    the sounds that have come into Tamil in these recent(say 100/200)
> *years
> *    and add a letter to the script. If that is the rate a script gets
> *    modified (particularly addtions based on new sounds!), We'll not
> *have
> *    Tamil after 1000 years.
> 
>        Nagu, as you can guess, I'm 100% with you. I will write about
>        this in a separate thread. Many people including people don't
>        understand what is the system used in Tamil and what are the guiding
>        thoughts. Our forefathers have so carefully designed a system
>        which has served us so well. Tamils explicitly avoided certain
>        sounds and in certain sequences.
> 
>        We are not averse to 'progress' and adopting new features,
>        as is known  'puthiyan puguthalum, pazayna kazithalum
>        kaala vakaiyinaanE', but not anything new and novel is beneficial.
>        puthiyathellaam puthumai alla. ivaLam perukkum puthuppayan
>        tharuvathu puthumai.


anbu Selva, ennudaiya vEndukOL. Yes, I really do not know much of our
grammar.
If you can write about them, And put these rules out, that will be
really useful
for our discussion. Thank You In Advance.


> *
> *anbudan,
> *nagu.
> *PS: I do not know anything about linguistics. But somehow I love Tamil
> *    in all of its present form(except for some difficulties that we
> *    face in ukara uukaara varisai).
> 
>        We should not touch ukara Ukaara varisai because that'll
>        cause major jitter at a time that is too precarious and dangerous.
>        Continuation of tamil in the next 30-50 years is crucial.
>        After 50 years or so when we have achieved certain social,
>        political changesand above all economic affluence, we can do it.
>        First let us have tamil in music, temple worship, administration,
>        courts, primary, secondary and higher education, .. then
>        we'll think of 'improving' the script.
> 
>        anbudan selvaa

Thamiz ini viraivil vaLarum....

anbudan,
nagu.

> 
> 
> 
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